Curse

Bryant Again · May 27, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Okay, yes. This is going to be somewhat of a GW vs. WoW thread, but in a very concerning and interesting regard. I know it'll be hard to swallow since many here know that I'm a very active WoW player, but bear with me!

There have been a few recent changes and updates to the game that have undeniably made it "easier". Whether or not you like it, it's hard to deny that the skill Ursan Blessing makes the game a bit easier to grasp. Same goes for the 22 update, providing nothing but a myriad of buffs to the PvE side of the game.

I've been in somewhat heated discussions regarding these few things, being confused at why Anet has to make their game easier, and easier, and easier. One of the most logical points has been that "the newbies pay the bills". In a more appropriate wording and reasoning, there are many more inexperienced players than experienced ones, so "catering" to them will most likely net you more moolah.

Now this is where I'm a bit confused: they don't really do this in the World of Warcraft. Granted, they've made areas a bit more accessible for raiders, but things are still very far from being "handed to you". The % of people who have seen SSC/TK is still very small, and the % of people who have even looked at Illidan is even smaller. Point being, a very large majority of the playerbase in the World of Warcraft has not seen most of the end-game content.

You'd think that WoW would be doing poorly because of this, but just the opposite is true: with a huge 10 million active accounts, it's hard to deny WoW's success. This brings me to the meat of my point: If catering to the "newbie" is supposed to give you the most financial success, why is WoW doing so good, and why has ANet had to do this with Guild Wars? Why has ANet had to essentially "dumb down" the difficulty of their game? Why does ANet has to cater to the inexperienced and not Blizzard?

So to set up the boundaries: this is not about WoW being a more quality game than GW or GW being a more quality game than WoW. It's not talking about the pros/cons of each. It's about one going in the opposite direction of another. So, why is this?

Thanks for comments, and any feedback is appreciated : )

Esan · May 27, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

If you find WoW more challenging than GW, play WoW.

Tyla · May 27, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I believe it's because the people who bought this game earlier had already payed their money for the privelidge to play.

If they bring in new customers, they get more money via the amount of people buying.

Kattar · May 27, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

This may be obvious but...

they don't want to be Blizzard?

That's why they're offering a different type of MMO/CORPG experience. Hence marketing to the casual player.

Most people are newbies as well (read: very few people here). I'm sure Loviatar will show up with the quote from Jeff Strain here in a few minutes.

garethporlest18 · May 27, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Honestly I don't have any idea why Anet does what it does. I don't really think it's trying to cater to noobies because it was easier before these buffs too. Now it's just easier to farm in certain places and easier to beat titles..maybe they were trying to make them more accessible for the people who didn't want to dedicate time? I've got no clue.

I'm waiting for them to just start giving money to people and titles being so easy to max that you don't have to dedicate even a week to hit GWAMM.

It could also have something to do with GW 2 and the HoM. *shrug*

oracle.delphi · May 27, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I believe it's because the people who bought this game earlier had already payed their money for the privelidge to play.

If they bring in new customers, they get more money via the amount of people buying.

exactly. wow is fee based, they get money from 10 million account every month. gw gets money once. (well 4 times, and more if you buy stuff from the igs)
and some of the things they're doing can improve the game, yes making it easier, but they also "nerf" skills too, making it more difficult

and whats with the ursan hate....ah nvm another topic i suppose

Bryant Again · May 27, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

If you find WoW more challenging that GW, play WoW.

What I'm talking about is ANet's current direction of making Guild Wars easier. I'm just confused of why this is so, since the PvE in Guild Wars used to have a handful of merit.

(And as you already may know, I *do* play WoW, extensively).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

This may be obvious but...

they don't want to be Blizzard?

That's why they're offering a different type of MMO/CORPG experience.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense: make Hard Mode so people can have a challenge, then they add a whole bunch of stuff to make Hard Mode easier. Couldn't people just lower the difficulty level?

Ben-A-BoO · May 27, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

If you find WoW more challenging that GW, play WoW.

wow, epic post lol

Now back to your question ... I don't have the answer at hand but the first thing that comes to mind is the difference in the business strategy aka. monthly fee vs. buying new campaigns.

However, I am still as puzzeled as you are about the HUGE power creep with the introduction of pve skills, consumables and recent pve updates ... made me leave PvE for good and focus again on what GW excels at ... PvP.

Zehnchu · May 27, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Why do people use the “overpowered” skills and full H/H parties then complain about wanting a challenge? I don’t use UB and I don’t care about the people who do because they don’t affect my play.

Bryant Again · May 27, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle.delphi

exactly. wow is fee based, they get money from 10 million account every month. gw gets money once. (well 4 times, and more if you buy stuff from the igs)
and some of the things they're doing can improve the game, yes making it easier, but they also "nerf" skills too, making it more difficult

Now, this is why I'm confused. Blizzard isn't just selling the game to those "newbies", they're *keeping* them. And they're not really dumbing down they're game in the process.

So why does ANet have to do this, or are you implying that they don't have to care about getting people to stay playing their game (which makes all these updates all the more confusing??)

Quote:

Originally Posted by timebandit

However, I am still as puzzeled as you are about the HUGE power creep with the introduction of pve skills, consumables and recent pve updates ... made me leave PvE for good and focus again on what GW excels at ... PvP.

I'm actually more about deeper character development. DnD 3rd edition rules had 20 levels, and I loved it to death. Guild Wars could have a level cap of 10 as far as I'm concerned, just as long as it's a bit complex and enjoyable. It's just that with a higher level cap you're given a bit more flexibilty in terms of what to allow for characters.

Kattar · May 27, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

I guess since more and more people (not just the hardcore) are getting into Hardmode, the nerfs are sure to follow.

FengShuiDove · May 27, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I dunno, I think it'd be great if GW2 featured some sort of "short-term success" or completion around campaign-length now as well as "long-term success" where it really takes a good many hours of actual playing to get to a location and to complete a whole new longer, more difficult set of objectives. This would be similar to the elite areas of today except with cinematic and storyline content.

Both the Factions elite areas and DoA in Nightfall could have been made into much much more than "there's a wicked sub-boss sitting in the dark over here. Get your friends together and go kill him" despite the fact that they're intended to be more difficult than the normal campaign mode and end-boss.

While I partially agree with you, I do enjoy the format of Guild Wars' short campaigns and being able to finish the game in a rather short period of time. However, I believe that ANet could cater to new and experienced players by making the "secondary" or "elite" campaign both much longer and much more difficult. To encourage PUGing, even, divert the storyline to include something regarding an "Ascended Leader" -- ie a non-ai player who has completed the shorter campaign -- being a requirement to continue on the path. This will really slow things down but would in my opinion add to the role-playing feel that the hardcore players entering these areas are going to want.

I think people give GW too much crap. DoA and the elite areas were fantastic ideas with soooo much more potential than they actually came with. But through these I think ANet has the right idea. These harder areas give better weapons, more money, and require more of a challenge. Even think - adding a whole storyline around the realms of the 5 gods for a "core" "Ascended Campaign." They're on the right path, and if they can grasp some of these things and up the game level and completion time around them, GW2 could have some excellent new player retention and veteran gameplay options.

Nightmares Hammer · May 27, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Now, this is why I'm confused. Blizzard isn't just selling the game to those "newbies", they're *keeping* them. And they're not really dumbing down they're game in the process.

So why does ANet have to do this, or are you implying that they don't have to care about getting people to stay playing their game (which makes all these updates all the more confusing??)

Epic post is epic.

I really wanna know the answer to this...

Bryant Again · May 27, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehnchu

Why do people use the “overpowered” skills and full H/H parties then complain about wanting a challenge? I don’t use UB and I don’t care about the people who do because they don’t affect my play.

But why introduce skills like UB in the first place? I can understand if the game was difficult, but all that you'd have to do in that case is just lower the difficulty to normal mode. Why do people *have* to play it in Hard Mode?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

I guess since more and more people (not just the hardcore) are getting into Hardmode, the nerfs are sure to follow.

I sure hope so. I haven't seen a "nerf" to PvE in a very long time.

@Below: Ahhhh, I see whatcha mean..

Kattar · May 27, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I sure hope so. I haven't seen a "nerf" to PvE in a very long time.

Heh, I meant nerfs to make it easier. Personally, I'm looking to GW2 for these types of things from now on.

Agreed with oracle (below me) as well. I think if GW was setup more like WoW (paying for char slots {not like Gw anyway} and to have them moved from server to server) things would be more than a little different.

oracle.delphi · May 27, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Now, this is why I'm confused. Blizzard isn't just selling the game to those "newbies", they're *keeping* them. And they're not really dumbing down they're game in the process.

So why does ANet have to do this, or are you implying that they don't have to care about getting people to stay playing their game (which makes all these updates all the more confusing??).

they HAVE to have new players to make money, it's a reality, and one way is making things mroe accesable to new players. And they do care about people after they stay, hence the updates and weekends and events. WOW, without making this a "why gw is better than wow" or vice versa thread is kind of intimidating. I like GW, you can spend months getting through all the games, and still have stuff to do, on one character. Then you can play a new one. I know, i've been playing less than a year. I still have stuff to do on my first char, my ele. But i made a monk, and a rit too..haven't done much with them, but i can. And this allows me to play different characters, thus experiencing the game in new ways. (playing a monk waaaaay different then an ele)
and..as i said before..they do make things more difficult as well. and they have elite areas and PVP which is an ever evolving challenge as people get better at using the skills and discover new skills

BlackSephir · May 27, 2008, 07:22 PM // 19:22

If you look at AN @ Prophecies and AN now then it looks like we're dealing with 2 different companies
Proph AN "if you can't do this mission you should improve your build"
GWEN+ AN "if you can't do this mission just take our new masterpiece- ursan".

Bryant Again · May 27, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

I may've forgot the emphasis on WoW's most polished content: Raids. The reason that raids are so important is because they're laregly challenging and require a lot of time, and are arguably the most "epic" content in the game - and they are *very* hard to get into, requiring a lot of time, a lot of effort, and a lot of teamwork. Very few people have seen some of this endgame content, even after they (Blizzard) have increased the accessibility. If so few people have seen the endgame, if so few have even *touched* the raids, than how is Blizz able to keep all these people contented?

So in other words, why hasn't WoW "opened up" their raids to be accessed by more people? How have they been able to keep this content so rarely seen and yet still be successful?

Koricen · May 27, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If catering to the "newbie" is supposed to give you the most financial success, why is WoW doing so good, and why has ANet had to do this with Guild Wars?

One reason I would attribute to WoW's success is Blizzard's history. They have long been known for making amazing games, and one of the best online RPGs of all time, Diablo II. Blizzard already had a huge pseudo-player base with Warcraft III, which is a good enough game that it would not take much to move them from War3 to WoW. As for NCSoft what did they have? Lineage? CoH? CoV? No thanks.
I could probably think of many reasons that one would initially look to WoW before GW. One reason being the level cap, alot of people seem to think that because the level cap in GW is 20 there isn't much to the game, beat it and be done. Whereas the WoW levelcap is 70 (soon to be 80) people initially think that there will be alot more to the game. All of us I'm sure know this to be false.
A second reason I have encountered is some people have the obvious (and quite ignorate) misconception that if you don't have to pay per month for an RPG then it is a bad game. I was hanging out with my friend in the library while he was playing GW on his laptop and some guy came to us, the conversation went something like this:
The guy: What are you playing, WoW?
My friend: Guild Wars.
The guy: Oh... is that like WoW?
Me: Kind of.
The guy: How much is it?
Me: Fifty bucks.
The guy: I mean per month.
Me: You don't have to pay each month, you buy the game and you have it.
The guy: Oh... must suck then.

One thing you have to consider is that a lot of skills were nerfed because of PvP. They were perfectly fine in PvE, but were nerfed because they could be exploited and gimmicked in PvP. Quite a few of the new skill changes were to revert them to their original form so PvE wouldn't be punished because of PvP balance. I won't deny that GW sometimes seems to move towards new players, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Edit: As for UB it could use a good nerf. A couple time lately I broke from tradition and went with some PUGs instead of H/H. I noticed a monk had a sword and shield and wondered why, but just went with it. Then I noticed he was at melee range with my assassin and thought "What the hell is he doing?" I clicked on him and he was using ursan... I felt dirty after that. I see ursan as being acceptable in elite areas like DoA or UW or what have you, but if you're doing Oola's lab you don't need ursan.

zwei2stein · May 27, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

I think issue are not inexperienced people. It is experienced people who are bad players (majority).

With WoW you can eventually reach any content. Carrot always seems somehow close. You CAN kill Illidian if you play a bit more. You CAN do any imba dungeon if you out level it. Hell, you wait for next expansion and and you get better items from quests than from any raid you could do before and you get 10 levels so you can kick some Onyxia ass with 5 people..

In GW's you cant do it. One your character is maxed you cant just outwait or outlevel or play harder. You have to get better as player. That is hard. It requires learning, swallowing ego, listening to more experienced people, stop acting childish and all that stuff. In GW you have people who played for years and would be unable to clear UW without imba skills. In WoW same people would clear UW equivalent sooner or later. GWs version of those people would never, ever clear it.

But they fell damn well entitled to be able to do so, even if they have whole lot of content they never touched they want to do elite stuff because after 2+ years they feel elite. I have seem people to follow this train to eventually quit of gw to never return because "only no life kids can do highend stuff in gw" (they cant be any wronger, but thats what you get if rest of game can be well conquered with heal other spamming monks in your backline ... people dont have to improve so they fail at challenge, which make them quit because noone plays to fail ... so they added easymode stuff).

I told one very bad explayer who quit for lotro to never return about Ursan ... once he learned there is skill that allows him to do anything regardless of skill he bought GWEN and farmed to r10. He is happy because he can now attain all those HM titles and stuff. I am not so happy because i created another ursanwayer x.x however it illustrated perfectly what dumbing down PvE is supposed to do: sell more GW. Any anti ursan rant can be considered GWEN advertisement.